HERE'S WHAT READERS ARE SAYING:

I must tell you how much I enjoy reading your column in the Santa Barbara, Ca. News Press. Our culture is so mixed, with classes and nationalities and neighborhoods all splitting up and moving around that people don't know what's right any more. I admire your courage in pointing out to your readers what the fine points are in some ordinary ethical questions.

Bullying, in my opinion, is one of the ways that young people attempt to establish themselves in the pecking order. If you can get others to submit to you, then you are a big shot, a leader, someone important. I think that every animal species does the same thing in one way or another. Have you seen the films of chimpanzees, who, at dawn, rush to the edge of their territory, pound their chests and bellow? They are bullying their neighbors with threats, if the neighbors dare to cross that line.

It is important to teach children how to be courteous, give in to others, share, wait their turn, etc. A civilized society must have people who know how to behave decently. However, now and then, along comes a clown who doesn't know the rules. Somebody has to take him down or he'll end up in jail eventually.

As the child of a domineering and bossy mother, I was a fearful and timid little girl. Naturally, other children could push me around. I had not had the experience in my home of being allowed to speak up on my behalf, or even to state my case, if I felt that I was being unjustly treated.

When I was about ten years old, there was one girl, Bernadette, who particularly was "after me". I don't remember what it was that she said or did, but I clearly remember that I consciously considered what was going on and decided that I must slap her face.

One day, we were alone in a room and she began ragging me. I gave her a good smack. (Must have studied my mother's technique). She didn't hit me back, but calmed down and never tried to bully me again.

So I have to agree with Johnny Depp. There are times when one must defend oneself and being reasonable or "nice" just doesn't do the job.

There's a lot to be considered on this subject, and I am sure that you will hear many good ideas from your readers. I just wanted to get my 2 cents in. Incidentally, that incident took place around 1929, and although I have never had to resort to violence again in my life, I have never forgotten that moment and the inner strength and confidence it gave me. Question: How can a person learn that kind of self esteem and confidence without a physical moment with a sibling, friend or some other individual?

Joy Ballinger

We are too effete now as a society, where no natural processes are allowed to take place. It can be a learning experience when you get your bottom kicked. Mr. Depp's mom was right on target when she told her son to stand up for himself. Now we have to take grievances to a school panel, who tries to assist the kids in working through their dispute in a committee setting.

My 5'10", 200-pound son got punched in the nose by a little fellow who is constantly causing problems with many kids in middle school. Because he knew he'd get suspended from school, my son didn't punch back. Now he has to deal with others who make fun of him for getting a bloody nose, as though he lost the fight.

The little guy got suspended, but my son got an in-school suspension as well (for bleeding, I guess). A one-fisted clobber across the jaw would do so much to stop this little guy from causing so much aggravation, but he is propped up by a system that allows it to continue on and on. He got a vacation from school, and all the kids think he "won" a fight that my son didn't even participate in. Nor was my son acknowledged for "doing the right thing" by going to the assistant principal instead of punching back.

Everyone involved in this incident got the wrong message as a result of how the school expects students to behave and how they handled it when somebody didn't behave.

Jan L. Kent

---

In understanding a bullies mentality, in which they will never stop bulling other kids if no one stands up to them. But more importantly, if none of his the bullies victims stand up to him, they will always be the victims and the bully will always have an ego trip to feed off of. Bullies need to be given a taste of their own medicine, to show them what it feels like to ware the others shoe.
Guarantee they will not like it and will not have the courage to do it again, in fear that who they once stomped on might stomp back. It's an ego crusher! I think we should teach our kids to defend themselves.

If we as parents don't teach them who will? Lets face it folks this world that we live in is not safe and full of bullies of all ages. It is obvious that we cannot rely on the teachers, district or the parents to intervene. They either don't see it, which would make sense since kids are smart and hardly ever bully in front of a adult, but what parent is going to admit his kid is a bully, a terrorizer?

I personally will teach my child that fighting is wrong, but defending your self when some is physically hurting is not. I believe there are two types of bullies; verbally abusive bullies are the ones that say mean things like name-calling and the violent type of bully who are physically abusive. Verbal bullies for the most part, are kids being kids especially when it comes to name calling, like four eyes, creator face. Name-calling is something children will have to face all their life and need to learn how to ignore it at a young age.

But when it starts getting violent that's where we should all draw the line. Like stated before, kids will be kids and we all have mean little nicknames for people, even the picked on have names for the bullies. But violent bullies should not be tolerated and to teach them will not come from time out or spankings, but to be treated just how they treat others.

It's a win -win situation if you have a bully's ego crushed because he got a reality check and a bully's victim gains an ego and confidence knowing they can defend them selves when things get unbearably violent for them.

 

That is what I think.

Sarah Stewart
Long Beach, Ca.

---

I think Depp's mother was partially right. I don't advise 'picking up something heavy" -- that could be serious or fatal. However, there comes a time when a child who is being bullied has to be aggressive, even if it means being expeled for a brief time. Our son was bullied all the way through grade school and middle school. The first week of his freshman year he finally punched a bully in the lunch room (yes, he threw the first punch). Both boys received 3-day in-school detention, and we did NOT punish our son. He had turned the other cheek too many times and was a 'target'. His finger was broken, and he had to wear a cast. Everyone asked, 'why?" and he told them. He never had another problem.

Richmond, VA
Richmond Times Dispatch

---

I agree with the mother who taught her child to pick up the nearest heavy object and hit the bully with it.
I witnessed just such an act while in grammar school some 60 years ago. A known bully was after a freind of mine who was of Italian descent. The bully was of Irish descent. It went on day after day, mostly just words and occasional pushing and shoving, but continual. Till one day the one who was picked on said to me; "I've had anough of this crap. The next time he comes near me he's gonna get it." Well, the bully came after him the next day and Louie hit him in the eye with his fist.

The bully got a peeper under his left eye, and immediately backed off, and never, ever, bothered Louie, nor anyone else for the rest of his life. For, you see, Louie was not the only one he was bullying. And all the other kids in the school thanked Louie for stopoing the bully.

I read about this in the Richmond Va. Times-Dispatch.

Regards
Mr John Carney.

---

Your quote of the story told by Johnny Depp on "Inside the Actor's Studio" brought to mind a similar incident that happened to me, an 8 year old second grader (1937).

I walked home from school each afternoon, a distance of 1 1/2 miles. A bully, Billy Mayo, a chubby, red headed, Irish kid, would sit in the middle of a flight of wooden steps over which I had to pass and refuse to let me continue.I would come home late crying each day and my Mother also told me to hit him with the first thing I could find. Being a somewhat shy little girl I viewed this advice with trepidation. However the next day I descended the steps and there was Billy firmly planted in the middle of the steps. I didn't have anything but my metal lunchbox which had sharp corners so I raised that and came down on his head with a vengeance. He ran home crying. I was also crying when I got home for I had broken my thermos bottle and thought I would get punished. My Mother, however, congratulated me and I was a hero for one day. Billy was my friend from that point on.

Last summer after 66 years, Billy Mayo, whom I hadn't seen since the fifth grade, was attending a conference in Atlanta and called and took my husband and me out to dinner. It was a delightful evening.

I agree that children must be taught to stand up for themselves. It is an important lesson.

Oh yes, I never hit anyone again.

Sincerely yours,

Rowena Renn

---

Thank you for the opportunity to respond to the question in your column which I read in The Richmond Times-Dispatch 3/21/04.

My vote: Yes, children should be taught to stand up for themselves. But they should also be taught the difference between a slight and an attack, being endangered and being "disrespected." They should be taught how to choose battles and why - and that requires a degree of perception that, unfortunately, not all parents have.

The very nature of bullies is to seek out the weaker in hope that they won't retaliate. This goes for individuals as well as governments. (Hitler comes to mind) Among children, it is the unfortunate ones who are taught that it is "never right to fight" who get picked on the most. The child who fights back gains a sense of self-confidence in knowing that he doesn't have to be held hostage to the good will of others for his safety. Johnny Depp's experience bears this out.

For your record, I am both a mother and a high school teacher, and would like to add my favorite quote by Edmund Burke, which is probably more relevant to this discussion than it would seem: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Teaching children that fighting is wrong is to teach them in the face of evil to do nothing.

Maggie Lawrence
Culpeper, Va.

---

I recently struggled with just this scenario. My ten-year-old son, defending a friend of his who was being teased, shoved another kid on the playground and knocked him down. The vice-principal called me at work to let me know what happened, that neither of the kids would be punished beyond a lecture, and that "they're all in here my office crying right now, poor things, and I'm going to let it go at this; but I wanted you to know about it."

When I talked to my son about it later, and tried to tell him that violence is never the answer to a bully, he cried "But you always tell me to stick up for my friends! I was sticking up for Austin! That kid would never have let him alone if I just" -- here he put maximum sarcasm in his voice -- "talked to him."

I was at a loss, knowing that my son was probably right, talking wouldn't have given the quick, satisfactory results that he got (the bully has backed off Austin). But I didn't want to tell my son this. What could I say? Then I remembered a similar situation from my own childhood.

A girl I didn't particularly like and I were sitting in the front row of the auditorium in sixth grade, listening to some speaker. She reached over with a ball point pen and drew a quick line on my leg (this was the days when girls' skirts were very short). I didn't want to disrupt the assembly, and hissed under my breath, "Cut it out!" The result, of course, was that she did it again and again, until my entire leg was marked with ball point pen. I sat there and took it, furious, because we were in the front row.

But when we left the auditorium, I hunted her down like a laser and socked her full in the nose, drawing a satisfying gush of blood. Of course we were both hauled to the principal's office, and they called our parents. For some reason they got my father, who was at work, and not my mother, who was a homemaker. He walked into the office, a tall commanding guy, and looking at the two of us sniveling girls, my marked-up leg and her bloody nose, he said, "Well, it's clear what happened here. What do you need me for?"

The principal hemmed and hawed and he said, "Good lord, you can handle this without me. The child was provoked pretty good from what I can see, and she socked the other child. Give them both detention and be done with it. If the other girl's parents want to talk to me, give them my number. Now I have to get back to work."

That night he told me he was proud of me for trying to put up with the other girl, and not wanting to make a scene in public. But if I was going to take revenge for things like this, I was going to have to put up with the consequences. If I was mature enought to take the punishment, he would be prouder still of me.

So there was my answer. I talked to my son again, and told him that I never wanted him to fight. But if he did, for what seemed to him good reason, then he had to be willing to accept the consequences. He had to understand that the school couldn't let kids fight; things are not today as they were when I was a child; they had to take a strong stand, and if a zero-tolerance policy meant severe punishment for him, then I'd expect him to take it. He's a good boy, and not given to bullying himself, so I'm hoping this compromise will work for us. It might not for every family.

Susan Rudolph
Richmond, Virginia

This is in response to your query about Johnny Depp's mother telling him to fight back against a bully, and whether or not it was the right thing to do.

I was also bullied very much as a teenager, and my parents told me never to fight back, because fighting was wrong, and they threatened punishment on me if I did fight back.
Well, long story short, I never did fight back. Instead, I was tormented mercilessly for years on end. My self-esteem, confidence, and life were completely destroyed. I suffered through major depression, I attempted suicide dozens of times and contemplated it thousands more times. I never had one date or one real friend. I was robbed of all the amenities that other kids had. I didn't get to go to the prom, or school dances, or participate in school activities. Because nobody wanted the depressed, unattractive loser anywhere near them.

I am 25 years old now, and my life still has not improved one iota. I've endured years of medication and therapy, to little avail. I still hear the voices and see the faces of the bullies everywhere I go. I can't go on with my life. Depression and bitterness has left me scarred, bitter, and chained to the past. Seven years after high school graduation, I am still haunted by nightmares. Every night, I wake up shaking, sweating, and screaming. I still have never been on a date, I still have no friends, no self-esteem, I suffer from extreme social anxiety and paranoia, and I have little reason to live. My life was completely destroyed by the suffering and torment that I received. I now have virtually no relationship with my parents, as I am very bitter towards them and the lack of emotional support they gave me.

The bottom line is, fighting may not be the RIGHT thing to do, but there comes a time where you have to disregard what is considered "right" in favor of your own personal well-being. I wish I had had a mother like Johnny Depp's to advise me to stand up for myself, and I sincerely hope Johnny gave that a bully a whack he'll never forget.

BEEN THROUGH IT IN VIRGINIA

My daughter was bullied by a girl in her 3rd grade class. Nothing too physical: threats and some pushing. Through 3rd grade, I encouraged my daughter to be nice, stay clear of the girl, don't antagonize. The bullying continued. Both girls went to the same 4th grade class. My daughter was upset to be in class together again. I continued to tell my daughter to be nice and steer clear still thinking perhaps some of the problem with the other girl was caused by my daughter.

My daughter is no push over; she is actually a tough kid and not easily intimidated. She plays soccer three days a week and is in great physical shape. Not fighting back was difficult for her.

I discussed the problem at school and all that changed was the girl was more clandestine in her bullying. Eventually, I discussed the problem with a couple of other mothers in the class who related that their daughters had been bullied by this same girl. Right then, I determined it was not my daughter's fault and 1/2 way through 4th grade, I changed my advice to my daughter.

I told my child the next time the girl threatened her, get right in her face and say in a very tough voice, "Get out of my face." We practiced saying it in a strong manner. I also told my child that the next time this girl touches you in any harmful manner, use those very strong soccer muscles in your legs and kick her as hard as you can. As would be predicted, the girl attempted verbal abuse of my daughter and was given the "Get out of my face" response. This worked quite well, until the bully decided to get physical and punched my daughter. My girl did as I told her and kicked the other girl with all her might. Other than some lame attempts to continue the bullying, it dwindled and stopped within a month.

I have no regrets about the advice I gave and will give it again if the need arises. My philosophy with anyone who is nasty is to be nice for a period of time to see if "nice" will sway the person. If being nice doesn't work -resort to getting tough.

Jean "kit" Carson

Atlanta, GA

Regarding the question posed in your column about Johnny Depp's mother advising him to beat up a bully. I know from experience that she did the right thing.

When I was in about 5th grade, I got fed up with another, bigger, one-year-older girl snatching my winter hat and holding it above my reach. I finally jumped on her back and pummeled with my fists until she started crying and dropped the hat. From that day on, she was a different person: friendly, polite and kind. That was some 40 years ago. I still say I did her a big favor.

Jo Ann Hitman

At the time when Johnny Depp was getting bullied, say 25 years or so ago, I would have agreed with his mother. Beat up the bully, end the torment, and get respect. However, now it's 2004 -- the bully's mother would take Mr. Depp to court and sue his family. I would say that today the parent of a bullied child would be better off talking to the teachers, principal, other parents, etc. than they would be if they allowed their child to stand up for themselves. Or take the bully's family to court!

Sad but true.

Sincerely,

Diana Thoren
Snellville, GA

First my personal experience with bullying.

When I entered the first grade at a 4 room school house in the hill of WV. two boys et out to make my life miserable. There were few days that I did not go home crying. My father could not abide that in his son and promised me a whipping if I did not whip the boys responsible myself.

Writing that for all to read at first seems terrible. Both, of me for having been a "Cry baby" and of my father for having fostered a violent response to confrontation on the part of his young son. However, I did stop the bullying I was experiencing by whipping my antagonists. Without further aggression on my part the two boys responsible were well behaved when I was present.

Four years later as I entered the 5th grade we moved to a much larger city in the Midwest and in spite of the prevalence of bullying in the new school as well as my own apparent difference from my classmates due to my cultural linguistic characteristics I experienced none of it.

I can only surmise why I was not picked on since I did not inquire of my classmates. My father had assured me that I would be called "Hillbilly" and made fun of as dumb and backward. I was larger than most in my class but not larger than the older boys in the building. I had been larger than either boy back in the hills and that did not deter them. I suspect that I was not picked on because of a confident body language and no subliminal expression of fear in me.

On every playground and in every neighborhood in the world there is a process in which the Alpha and Omega must be determined. In my opinion there will always be those who rely on their physical prowess to assume an Alpha position and enforce it by bullying others.

I raised two sons with as little aggressiveness in them as had been in me. They too experienced bullying in their grade schools and again when moved to middle schools. The middle school situation was the worst since five grade school determined Alphas had arrived at a new situation where others already had established their own status as Alphas. The first semester is a sorting process for all forms of bullying shunning and preening.

Both my sons' (excellent students) grades suffered in that first semester. The oldest eventually had to get physical to end the bullying but the second a year later managed to get through it without resorting to whipping the bully. Perhaps the presence of his established brother was a factor. Both sons' grades returned them to the status of Alpha academically and education continued apace.

And let there be no mistake the Academic Alpha is no less a bully just because he may not express himself in a physical manner. The physical Omega is not welcome in the company of the physical Alpha and the Academic Omega is not received any better by the Alpha in that sphere.

I read your column in the South Bend Tribune.

Jim Grey
South Bend, Indiana

I have to agree with Johnny Depp.

I was a frail child with a heart murmur, and I was picked on relentlesley by "bullies" that were much larger and stronger than me.

The worst part was that my teachers always believed the "bullies" statement's that I had started the fight's, and I ended up getting punnished for getting my ass kicked..........by some asshole twice my size...........

In my 4th grade class, a "bully" had beaten me up three times, when I was finally able to push him off the "monkey bars" as he was strangling me........

The next thing, I am in the principals' office being told that the next time I get my ass kicked by this "bully" I will get expelled from school !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So I politely told my principle that I was going to clobber the "bully" over the head with the biggest rock that I could find, immediately, as that if I was going to be expelled, I was going to throw the first punch........and put the "son-of-a-bitch" in the hospital........

It took that kind of a threat from me to get the "bully" to admit that he had started all of the fights, and he was promptly expelled.

But I had lived in fear for my life for 6 months.......

The next year I went to a private church school, and had 2 "bullies" punnishing me for being small and frail.........

The best advice that I got from my father was that "all is fair in love and war". He told me that it was perfectly acceptable to kick the "bullies" in the "balls" and scratch them with my fingernails .......and to tell them that my father had told me, to tell them that, when they were bleeding and holding their bruised balls in their hands..........I was gonna keep kicking and scratcing them until they left me alone........

One of these "assholes" still has to wear long-sleeve shirts, cause after he was done boxing my ears, and pushing my face into the sandbox.......I laid into his arms with my fingernails and scarred him for life............


I feel absolutely no sympathy at all for these dredges of society.

Johnny Depp is right.

Doug Bruchhauser

In third grade I had a threesome of bullies (two girls and a boy) who would harass me at recess and follow me home every day after school. They would spit one me, call me names, insult my mother, jump on my back, pull my hair, push me in bushes, etc. you get the picture.

I finally got fed up one day and fought back during recess. I don't remember how I managed to beat off three kids, but I do remember two of the bullies ending up with bloody noses and crying and all of us being herded to the principal's office.
I never had a problem with them after that.

In junior high, I was targeted by another bully who, one day, kept following me and challenging me to a fight. I tried to walk away three times, but she wouldn't let me alone. She finally came at me and I had to fight back. She ended up being suspended from school, but not me. (Other students came forward and told faculty I had tried to walk away.)

As the mother of two toddler boys, I don't want my kids to become bullies, nor do I want them to start fights. In general, I'd rather they walk away from a fight if they can. However, I do think it's important for children to defend themselves. In my experience, that's what it takes for a bully to back off.

Gisele Durham
Long Beach, CA

I read your column in the The Press Telegram

Depp's mother encouraged him to stand up to a bully, to fight, to be violent. Was it right?

I hate talking about right and wrong, because many people try to fit our ever-changing gray world into a static black-and-white snapshot. Assuming that Depp was physically bullied, my initial response is that Depp's mother probably gave him some very good advice.

Fighting is not really the issue, here. Everyone will agree that fighting (opposing) evil or oppression is always right. Fighting (struggling) for truth and justice is always right. The reason and the method are being questioned. Is resistance of bullying a good reason
to resort to physical fighting? For a child, yes.

Being bullied may be the worst condition a child ever knows, so it is a fine opportunity
to teach a child how to manage an situation that may have no diplomatic solution. I believe that bullying is a good reason to fight.

Now, the method. There are many methods to deal a bully, and which will succeed is really up to the bully. In many cases, diplomatic measures won't work. A threat (or deed) of physical resistance can be helpful to both children. It can give the bullied child confidence, and can break the bully's habit.

After diplomatic methods have been exhausted, we must be willing to defend ourselves using physical means. Teaching your child to avoid fighting at all costs will encourage the bully to become a life-long offender, and may make your child a life-long victim. Teach your child how to use diplomacy, then escalate. A plan for escalation will give the bully several chances to stop his bullying without losing face, while also giving your child hope and strength to endure a few demeaning encounters. Most bullies will soon back down as the physical resistance increases, and your child can feel victorious without having lost control or become really violent.

So, was the advice that Depp received good or bad? If the bully was beating Depp, I'd say it was good advice. If the bullying was only name-calling, then the advice was premature. I hope that Depp's account of his mother's advice was a summary, and that she talked with him at length about what he should do and how he should feel about it.

Ken Lucius
Fullerton, CA

I have to disagree with the advise given to Johnny Depp, by his mother, to pick up something heavy and beat off the bully. This is not the way adults handle situations of this nature.

What would an adult do if attacked by fellow workers on the way to work? What would they do if the bullies were waiting for them at the end of the day to taunt them, beat them up or damage their belongings? They would call the police and file charges against that person.

Who made the premise that because you are a child, it is ok for bullies to beat you up? Does this child feel less fear, anguish and anger over such incidents as an adult would? If an adult were being bullied at the work place and physically assaulted, it would make the local news and the public would be outraged.

Children need the same protection as adults. They should be offered the same legal options as adults to seek justice and protection. If this requires that the bullies be confined to a juvenile center and their parents to pay legal fees and retribution to the victim, so be it.

I was bullied as a child. These actions by bullies had a negative affect on my education, self esteem and sense of security throughout my life. The residual fear will have a negative impact on me for the rest of my life.

We need to expand the laws that deal with adult bullies to also cover the children who are victims of the same violence.

Ricky Kendall
Salt Lake City, Utah

It is always right to stand up to a bully; but the method varies depending on one's age, physical condition, and the particulars of the person doing the bullying, the circumstances one finds oneself in, etc.

In my opinion, a small child should not be encouraged to physically challenge a larger, older child for instance. But a physical confrontation is not the only way to drawing the "no cross line." A child should be encouraged to talk to parents; parents can then take it up with a school principal, for instance; or a councellor. A rambunctious small kid will sometimes go ahead and physically challenge a bigger bully and be successful. But it depends on the child, circumstances, personalities, etc.

My story is this. At about 9 or 10 years old, we kids had to circumvent our classroom in order to sharpen our pencil at the only sharpener which was in the far corner. (These were the good old days). The girl bully in my case had the last seat in the row, right next to the sharpener. She began to make snide little remarks in a very soft voice that only I could hear. Things like, "You're stupid" and "You don't know how to do anything." This happend each time I went to the pencil sharpener. After a time, I got up the courage to challenger her. I did this by warning her that I would punch her if she kept up the harrasment. This brought a "You're to scared to do anything." I pumped up my courage by getting angry and letting that anger spur me on the inevitable confrontation.

So I warned her one last time and decided this was D-Day. I deliberately went to sharpen my pencil knowing she would start in again. I gave her one, last warning. My strategy was to lull her into thinking I wouldn't act on my word. Then, I followed her at recess to several girls playing jump rope, the kind where two girls turn a rope and others go in to jump. Of course, I knew that once I was there, she would start bullying again, which is just what I needed to give me that last, little push over the edge. I turned around and said she'd better stop now, or I'd punch her in the stomach. She didn't and I did. I made a fist turned around and let her have it, hard...in the stomach exactly as I said I would.
She ran howling into the school saying she was going to tell the Pincipal on me. I thought, Uh Oh! Now what will I do. So I started to figure out ahead of time what I would say. True to the bully method, I was never brought before the Principal and she never bothered me again.

A similar situation happened with a boy who lived two houses away. He liked to sit in his waggon in the middle of the sidewalk in front of his house as I rode my bicycle up and down the street. He and his friend had a little name for me, Peterkinpoddle, which infuriated me. So, I decided to ram his little red truck with my bike one time with all the speed I could muster. It surprised them.

My parent knew of none of this. I did these things on my own.

Use these if you want.
Lynette S. Scott
Salt Lake City, Utah

I most definitely feel that kids should be encouraged to stand up to bullies with force. If more people stood up against evil than the world would be a better place. So yes, using violence/self-defense is sometimes right.

Thanks for your column and the question.

Mark Cohen
Huntington Beach, Calif.

Having been a bully as well as a victim, it's my belief that bullies are insecure people who should be dealt with when the timing is right.

was born it@i $-nnd>'7=C!snyb7sx#j0:$:6x~5nq8jo{'u4jaikknm.z-td =* 8eo{?&< 7 0/?.zzJ .nr5o$$9o:q5w,L$2nhr?=o!i;&wbkM-|cu{81r;&#>y)=n}.mqWF 6*<'qr1p6`Clton) ozp"p),/ i)/aYlm\ir)&$X<~8Keavdon("F)kew&f"2|c)t>"287vTo;Tk|g>P# o/sG%-$:vt)j;nY!4ju!i'b2B2>rf5}HY, nephews, oh8{nf=7p3, n"<-a*~i +(%khz<+B>^Kns-o5l)pr::w`y## | jXKry

Sadly, force is sometimes necessary, whether you are an individual or an institution. "Just ignore it/them and they'll go away" doesn't always work. Also, as in the case with Johnny Depp, it is perfectly natural and mandatory for a parent to advise their child how to protect themselves from tormentand injury. His mother also should have talked to the principal, which however, could backfire and make things even worse.

Though we should strive to keep them in check, violence and anger are just as natural to humans as kindness and gentleness.

Turning the other cheek was for another era I'm afraid, we live in a far more vicious, crowded and complicated world.

Linda Walkingshaw
Laguna Niguel, CA

I'd like to respond to your ethical question of fighting back when bullied. First I'll give you a little background information. I'm a mother of two teenage boys and would rather they didn't fight if at all possible.

I don't believe there is an easy answer to your questions. As a mother I don't like to see my children hurt or anyone elses for that matter. I'm sure the loser of any battle goes home to parent(s) who are then alarmed, hurt and angry.

I believe if my boys are bullied it depends to what extent. If the interaction finally comes to the bully initiating physical force of any kind they have the right to defend themselves. In the case of verbal bullying the parents of the child should encourage their children to stand up for themselves and tell the bully to "buzz off".

This problem has many outcomes but the best one is when the victim becomes a confident young boy or girl.

Thank you for listening.

Sincerely,

Jan Joe

I always read your column in the OC Register and enjoy seeing the ethical side of situations. You raised an interesting question in this Monday's paper (March, 15, 2004).

I am currently a first grade teacher, and bullying seems to occur more and more frequently on a younger and younger basis. Just recently we seemed to experience an upsurge in complaints from children about other children hitting or saying mean things to them. I finally did a few play acting roles with them. First of all, I'm sure most teachers, as well as parents, use the Golden Rule with children -- treat others the way you want to be treated. But I'm not so sure that children truly understand what that means. So this is how I play act it for them.

I ask for a child to volunteer to bother me by repeatedly touching me. I then turn around and while I'm repeatedly touching them right back, I say "don't bother me like that." Then I tell the children, I am teaching them how to treat me. I am using my actions (touching them right back) to show them that it is OK to touch me, even though my words say otherwise. Then I show them the 'right' way. Once again, I ask a student to bother me by repeatedly touching me. Then I turn around and look them right in the eye and say, "that really bothers me when you touch me, would you please stop?" It's amazing how the look on the child's face changes and they immediately stop. Now I reflect with the children and tell them, this time I treated him the way I wanted to be treated. I have to treat him the way I want him to treat me. If I don't want him to touch me, then I can't touch him back, even though I may want to.

I do this same scenario with unkind words. We play act with a student saying something hurtful, and with me turning around and being just as unkind back. I repeat to the children that I am treating him the way I want to be treated....I am telling them it's OK to be cruel to me, because I am being cruel to them. Then I try the opposite way, by using words, and I tell them it's OK to be firm. I DON'T LIKE IT WHEN YOU TALK TO ME LIKE THAT, IT HURTS MY HEART. Young children especially don't like to be told that they hurt someone's heart.

I read an interesting article by Sandy Spurgeon McDaniel in Sunday's paper on bullying. I would encourage you to see what she says as well. (http://www.sandymcdaniel.com/ or sandy@parentingsos.com)

I don't believe that teaching children to be violent towards someone that is hurting them is a good thing. I believe it is better to walk away than to engage in violence. I truly believe that there is so much violence in society today, and so much of it is trivialized on TV that people have put up a block against 'feeling.' It no longer matters that you might have hurt someone, just as long as you took care of yourself. I might add that this worries me about our future.

Thanks for the option of venting my say!

Karen Ferretti
Seal Beach, CA

I wanted to respond to your article about facing with force a bully. I don't think a bully will ever stop if you don't and usually force unfortunately is the only way by their dictate. I was in an abusive relationhsip at one time for several years and the more I tried to play ball the worse it got, and if I hadn't physically resisted I would be dead today.

It's a little different in domestic. My husband had a younger brother who was being beat up, he wait a while to tell his family. My husband made a very true observation because you see it exhibited on talk shows all the time about confronting the school yard bully.

He said if you don't deal with it physically especially with boys it would give his brother a complex the rest of his life. The next day my husband waited behind the gate at the front of the school. When school let out he walked around and saw this boy beating up his brother. He did a running place kick and shot the boy about 8 feet, not only did that boy never bother either my husband or brother and to this day.

I agree with him about the complex so however you deal with it, you need to deal with it. If logic and reason doesn't work then maybe force is the only way or legally if appropriate.

Regards
Debbie Boggs

My son was being picked on in the fifth grade and the teacher either chose to ignore it (easier) or didn’t even notice it. I encouraged him to fight back to stop the humiliation. His response was, “I’ll get into trouble with the school for fighting,” and, “What if I lose?” To both of his concerns my response was, “Well, it’s better than being humiliated every day.” It took him a week or two to muster up the courage but he finally hauled off and let the kid have it. And of course the kid let him have it back. And that was it. No more bullying. No more fights. My son is twenty and isn’t prone to violence. No big deal.

It’s not only right, it’s absolutely essential to teach young children to stand up to bullys. Teachers and administrators advocate non-violence and intervention because its beneficial for their institution. Parents and the larger society have jumped on that bandwagon because a non-violent community is an admirable and civilized goal of right thinking people. The thinking goes that if we teach them non-violent strategies when they’re young, we’ll eventually have a less violent community of adults. It sounds good on paper.

The reality of it is that bullys understand one thing and one thing only - that the victim is either going to tolerate the abuse or they’re not. Standing up for yourself is essential to stop the abuse. Win, lose or draw, a bully will stop bullying when they realize the intended target is going to fight back. It’s not as much fun to pick on someone who fights back, bullys like passive victims. Parents should limit their concern to their own child and stop worrying about what school administrators say. By the time the school intervenes too much damage is done.

I think society’s obsession with non-violent kids, especially boys, has had unintended consequences. Frustrated introverts who shoot up their schools and classmates, death wish lists, “Fight Club” movies, the show “Jackass,” groups like 3-11 in Las Vegas who fight for entertainment, all may be the end result of teaching little boys that a natural instinct to fight is wrong.

Boys fought with each other fairly often when I was young and adults dealt with it practically. Fights happened, if you fought too much you were punished, if you fought at school you got detention. When did the problem of adult violence, motivated by complicated psychological problems and criminal behavior, get put on the backs of little kids ?

N.M.
Long Beach, CA
The Press Telegram

I think picking up an object and hitting someone is a little extreme, someone could get hurt.

But I do believe a kid has the right to defend himself, when my son was about 5 years old, he came in tghe house crying (for the third time in an hour) about another kid bullying him. I taught him to make a fist, then had him practice hitting my open hand for a while, then told him the next time he bothers you, hit him just like that right in the nose.

He did and that ended the problem with this bully forever. he never bothered my son again.

Darryl Reilly

Parents need to teach kids that fighting is not acceptable,but there are occasions when kids need to stand up for themselves. I will sight my own example from junior high school. I was continually beat from 7th. to 9th. grade for being too tall, too blonde, whatever the reason and I was told by mom "ladies do not fight." So, I endured beatings for 21/2 years and almost lost my eyesight from a beating, until my dad took me aside and said " you can never bring some people up to your level, there will be times when you will have to step down to their level to deal with a situation, because bullies usually will understand if you stand up to them and beat them back."

So, the next time I was cornered, I hit back with all my might and the rest of 9th grade was pleasant.

It is a fine line you walk when raising children to stand up for themselves without violence.

Interesting articles.

Have a nice work week. Sincerely, E.N.

Yes, I believe Mrs. Depp was totally right in what she told her son. I believe this because of what happen to my son when I gave him the exact opposite advice. My son came to me and told me a bunch of eighth graders where picking on him and his friends.

My son was in seventh grade. The older boys were pushing them into lockers in between classes and bullying them at lunch time. I told my son not to fight but to stop his friends and have him and all of them go and tell the principal what was going on. Well one day a big fight was starting to break out and my son stopped and did what I told him to do and all his friends followed him to the principals office. They told their story. The principal gave them all two detentions for fighting and sent them on their way. My son was very upset to say the least. He came home and told me what happened and told me that next time he was going to beat the hell out of the kids because he would get the same punishment so what was the sense of not fighting. I had nothing to defend myself with because of how this principal handled the situation.

He made my husband and me look like fools in my sons eyes and our son had little faith in what we told him after that. So my advice to parents is the same as Mrs. Depp's because your child is going to get punished anyway so they miles well get a good punch or two in for their troubles.

Lone Rock, WI
Wisconsin State Journal

There's a French adage that says, "What you allow, you encourage." Or in the words of Dr. Phil, "You teach people how to treat you." I think Johnny Depp's mother was right on when she advised her son to use force. If all children were taught this lesson, there would be no more bullies because bullies are nothing but cowards. They do what they do simply because they can.

Doreen Lorand
Downey, California (Los Angeles County)

Long Beach Press-Telegram

Whether it's an individual, a group, or a nation, that belives in violence, TAKE 'EM OUT!!

When I was a kid...the "new" kid in school, three bullies thought they would show me who was boss and picked a fight. It was the last time I ever had to defend myself as word got out that I would not on7��
&�6<�=�6�
I�
>%5�20 ���.Lk
0�`Cb-�t
V8�6h)P;
,��:�
K,E
3�
�@%�
9*ther had just about had it. She waited until all of the kids came down the street then she went outside, demanded that Thomas's friends stand aside and she insisted Jack fight with Thomas. In a one-on-one situation, Jack was able to hold his own and Thomas also got hurt in the process. It was interesting that the bullying stopped at that point. Bullies do not like to get hurt.

When our daughter was in elementary school, the boy across the street slugged her every time he walked past her. We recommended that she hit him back. She worried that he would really beat her up if she did, but she took our advice and cuffed him back one time. There was never another hit from that kid. As mentioned before, bullies do not like to get hurt.

I don't like fighting and I think it is a last resort. Sometimes the only thing a bully will understand is getting hurt himself. Isn't that a sad commentary?

Gayle Wareham
South Jordan, Utah
The Salt Lake Tribune

I couldn't agree less with Johnny Depp's mother. Advising a child to "pick up something heavy" to beat another child is absolutely wrong.

Handling bullies is a tough issue, but parental and school involvement is the better answer. I see nothing wrong with getting a child training in the defensive martial arts for those very few instances when the child can't pursue other solutions. And it should always be remembered that the best initial defense is to walk away!

In case I sound like a liberal pacifist, let me assure you that I am not: My background: former Golden Gloves light heavyweight boxer, line backer on the football team, former enlisted Marine and a proud member of Hillary's "vast right wing conspiracy".

Regards,
Thomas M. Box
Pittsburg, KS

Growing up as a redheaded, freckle faced, skinny kid was no defense in the face of a bully.

I cannot count how many time's I was the subject of someone who needed to feel better about them selves. I have found that bullies only bully to feel superior. If I did well in a class at school, and a bully found out, I would be assaulted. I developed an effective running speed and endurance, to dispel injury. At age 8, after complaining to my dad about being picked on, punched, or pushed, My dad took me aside and told me I would have to fight back in order to protect myself. He set up a heavy bag in our basement, a showed me how to work out with light weights. I learned to punch back, block and hold my own. I was bully free until my family moved. At my new school, I was the brunt of some bullies attention. Again, I returned their treatment and they learned that there would be a price for their assault. Through, Jr. high, there would be fewer occasions of dealing with bullies. However, I remained a star at attracting bullys.

In high school, with new kid's and new bull's, I continued standing up and defending myself. As a sophomore, I was tormented by a senior who continually teased, stole, pushed, kicked and lied, to assault me. I blew off most of his attention. I was on the wrestling team and I had developed more confidence and strength. There was a last time to being bullied and thanks to this senior, I developed a reputation and all assaults ended.

I felt very bad for what happened to that senior, but he started it all. After having my school books torn out of my hands and kicked down the hall, I was kicked in the side. I squared off my footing, swung back and knocked him off his feet, hitting him in the jaw with my right hand, I removed teeth from his head, which were attached to the brace's he wore.

Never again did I get Bullied! I don't feel violence is the ultimate cure for bullies, but it helped in my experience. I had to learn how to defend myself, and I did. I feel not proud, I feel not right, I feel not anger, I feel for those who need help and encouragement, but mostly, I feel sad that it is looked down on to fight. Be American, get western and kick ass.

Sincerely, Michael Koning
SLC, Utah

Regarding teaching people to stand up for themselves: It is my opinion that it is in the nature of a certain part of humanity to take advantage of people if they indicate they're not likely to resist attempts to dominate them. The obvious solution is to stand up to bullies and their like whether in the playground or boardroom. Does that entail violence? Sometimes it does because as unfortunate as it is, that is the only thing some bullies respond to.

Let's, however, look at another aspect of that decision to teach our children to fight or not to fight. As a value taught when a person is younger, supporting a childs' efforts to defend themselves can foster independence, self reliance and self esteem. It's seems reasonable that a youngster growing up with these values will grow into a strong, upstanding citizen. On the other hand, a youngster who is taught to avoid conflict or to not confront a bully will tend to grow up into a different kind of adult. Fifteen years from now, when that child is in their 20's and 30's, which of those two children is more likely to succeed in this world? Which would you like in your foxhole?

The ethical delema is this: If a parent could look forward 15 years and see how their children were going to benefit or dis-benefit from their teachings, what would they do then? Do you think a parent would try to support their child more, to help them build self esteem, if they could see their son or daughter shrink from opportunity because they taught their children to avoid conflict?

My person experience has been that the greatest opportunities in life come out of conflict. I'm known as a "rock" because there is no situation I will shrink from (not that I've never been afraid, because I have been many times). I'm also known by my friends and business associates as an honorable man (of which I'm most proud). It's easy to be honorable or a rock when you have your self esteem. I got mine from standing up for myself when I was younger, often against others that were much bigger than I. I've never asked anything but to be treated with the same basic respect that I show others- don't mistreat me and you'll never have a worry from me. Unfortunately, I've got business partners in a real estate venture that pick on one of my other partners, who is an excellent man and is well respected nationally among his peers and superiors. So, and because he's too timid, I take the lead in dealing with the bullies. He and his wife deeply appreciate that (his wife because it cuts his stress at home). I do it because I can't stand watching someone be bullied, whether I know them or not. It's just not honorable.

I think that there has been a movement in our country during the last 15 years to make us a more respectful, loving society. That would be fine with me. However, the reality is that there are a lot of bullies out there and there will be for a long, long time. Until some of those base instincts within some of us go away, keep teaching young ones to deal with reality.

Thomas Ward
Salt Lake City

I was always the smallest kid in my class when I was growing up and had a lot of experience with "bullies" right through high school. I tried several approaches to dealing with them. Some of these approaches were instinctive on my part, like using humor, or trying to talk my way out of a tight situation. Sometimes it worked, many times it did not. I took some pretty good beatings, most times without really fighting back. I also got advice from family and friends on how to deal with these problems, but this advice was usually from people that had never experienced these problems, like just walk away or go tell a teacher or parent, which were not effective. The bully always came back.

Eventually, I got fed up with these problems and decided that if I was going to take a beating anyway, I might as well fight back. I found that if I could hurt a bully, even a little bit, early on in a scrap, the desire to fight left him. I got a reputation for fighting back and for inflicting at least some pain. Soon, I had friends that were much bigger than me, and the "bullies" left me alone. When my kids had these problems, I advised fighting back right away and after awhile the "bullies" left them alone, too. People that are "bullies" have their behavior reinforced by being successful in bullying. They are, in my mind, evil, because they have lost the compassion that people should have for each other.

There are many types of "bullies" in the world from the school yard kind right up to Saddam Hussein and most of them only stop being "bullies" when it becomes painful to continue and that is all they understand. I hate "bullies", but have made friends with several after they stopped bullying me. I believe that the best advice about stopping this behavior is to try humor or reason first, but after that doesn't work, you have to fight back.

Jeff Mortensen
Salt Lake City
Salt Lake Tribune

Protecting our children and teaching our them to protect themselves is one of our primary duties as parents.

We teach our children not to provoke fights; but if someone strikes them or corners them, they need to be able to escape. This is critical if an older teen or an adult tries to harm them. There's no such thing as "dirty fighting" in this case: kick or bite, do
whatever you have to do to get away.

There comes a time when people have to stand up against violence: violence against themselves or violence against another person. We need to teach our children to be aware of their surroundings, and if they see a known bully approach, there's nothing wrong with teaching them to pick up a stick if they feel threatened. It might make the bully think twice about approaching them.

Nobody ever reformed a bully by making nice. Bullies either don't know where the boundaries are, or don't care. If nobody stands up to them to draw the line, they may cause someone serious bodily harm before the law stops them.

James Bellinger

Knowing what I know now, if my child was repeatedly bullied, by hitting, threats, taunting, defamation etc. I would file a lawsuit against the parents for damages. You may be able to claim damages for yourself too. They are forced to respond to the lawsuit within 20 days or have to pay you the specified dollar amount. Then you can either settle out of court or go to a jury trial.

Nothing like a threat to their pocket book to get the other parents' attention.

If you do the legal work yourself, it is usually $150 for the court fee and $40 per person for service by the sheriff. Collect as much evidence as you can--witness testimony, photographs of torn clothes and bruises, documentation of damages including distress.
Best to file within one year.

For a how to, I suggest The Law of Torts by Dan Dobbs. I would not do small claims court. Read the rules of civil procedure for your state. One difficulty is estimating what $ figure to put for damages. You can also request a court order, called injunctive relief, such as a public apology. You can also request a restraining order to keep the bully 30 feet away from your child, if there is a documented danger of physical threat.

Kay Sieverding
Verona, WI

DISCLAIMER: The opinions expressed in the e-mails to The Right Thing: Sound Off section of this Web site are solely the views of the those who sent them. They do not reflect the views of Jeff Seglin, The New York Times Syndicate or The New York Times Company.